How to Avoid Being Indoctrinated | The Better Than Rich Show Ep. 6

Start Thinking Clearly

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Start Thinking Clearly 〰️

How to Avoid Being Indoctrinated

Understanding the concept of personality is important when trying to understand yourself as well as other people. Different personality types have different strengths and weaknesses. There is the Big Five personality model, which helps explain the concept in a digestible way. The traits individually work together to explain a much bigger picture which can show a variety of trends between groups like men and women and people of different professions.

Agreeableness

Here at Better Than Rich, we define agreeableness as a person's willingness to keep the peace. If you’re higher on the spectrum you are more likely to bite your tongue and avoid conflict. While people who are lower in agreeableness are more outspoken and confrontational. People low in agreeableness enjoy stirring the pot.

How much do you like to be agreeable? How much do you like to disagree?

It’s important to know this information because people are placed differently on the agreeableness spectrum. Where someone is placed can inform you on how well they work with others, if they take directions well, and a multitude of handy information. For example, where a person falls within the agreeableness spectrum can foreshadow what their values are. A person who is higher on the agreeableness scale is going to value compassion, graciousness, and understanding; their values are more so based on pathos or emotion. On the other hand, people who are placed lower on the spectrum value the exact opposite, and their values are based on logos or logic.

No matter where you are on the spectrum it’s important to be watchful of this because it can be an extreme strength or an extreme liability. You want to be agreeable so that you can work better with people and organizations, but you also want to make sure you aren’t getting taken advantage of.

No one likes being walked over.

The best way to avoid being taken advantage of while still staying agreeable is to create boundaries in your relationships and with yourself. Knowing beforehand how willing you are to help or when it’s okay to stir the pot is important to keep a healthy balance.

Conscientiousness

Conscientiousness is your drive. How hard are you willing to work? How much time are you willing to put in? How dedicated are you to your goals?

If you’re high in conscientiousness and you’re not working or being disciplined you feel down, you feel as though you aren’t doing or are enough. On the other side of the spectrum, people with low conscientiousness have no problem taking a day off to lay and bed and eat pizza. If you’re on the high end of the spectrum that would bother you.

Consciousness is broken up into two different dimensions: industriousness and orderliness.

Industriousness is how task-oriented and disciplined you are. This is the dimension that makes you better at routines and more reliable.

Orderliness explained simply is “How clean are you?” This is the dimension that makes you better at keeping your workplace and home orderly.

Extraversion

Extraversion is how much you enjoy being around people.

Extraversion is also the feeling of being drained or energized by exchanging energy with others.

For example, if you’re an extrovert which is a person high in extraversion then when you aren’t around people you feel drained, lonely, and less vibrant. While on the other side people low in extraversion or introverts gain energy from retreating and being alone. How much alone time do you need?

Neuroticism

Neuroticism is your tendency to be prone to negative emotions. Might sound bad at first but it can also be used as a very useful thing.

People who are higher in Neuroticism tend to be able to feel other people’s emotions better, they can show empathy easier as well. A common name for people who are high in Neuroticism is empaths. These are people who haven’t experienced the same things as others but understand what they are feeling nonetheless.

Since people higher in Neuroticism do experience negative emotions more frequently they do require more self-care into their schedules because their emotions are much easier.

If you’re low in neuroticism you’ll find it harder to relate to others and understand another person’s emotions or wants.

Openness

Openness is your willingness to try new things.

People who are high in openness love the world of ideas, they want to learn new things about culture, art, and are up for learning new things and enjoying new experiences, but these people are better at starting things rather than finishing them. While someone low in openness is selective, focused, and less creative, they also aren’t as likely to try new things but are more likely to finish the things they do start.

If you are high in openness you have to train yourself to pull back a bit and focus because you are leading others. This trait is important to know because it helps explain if you are a creative person who can create things from scratch or a person who is low in openness who is better at improving things that have already been created?

It truly doesn’t matter where you fall on these individual spectrums because every strength is a liability and every liability can also be a strength. The main focus is understanding yourself, understanding why you do things, and then knowing the best way to do things for you. Because the better you understand your personality, the better you’ll be able to apply what you know.

Andrew Biggs 0:00
Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the better than rich Show. I'm your host Andrew Biggs. I'm here with my special guest, Mike Abramowitz. Mike, how are you today?

Mike Abramowitz 0:09
Doing great feeling great. Thanks for always a pleasure.

Andrew Biggs 0:13
Awesome, man. Yeah, glad we're able to do this and, and catch up tonight. I know you've had a pretty busy day. And I was saying, hey, what are we going to jam on? And we were kind of going back and forth. And you're, you're all heated over there, man. So like, I'm sure that people want to know, like, what's what's got you all riled up this evening, man, what's up?

Mike Abramowitz 0:34
So what's what's gotten me really riled up is, how challenging it is for me to get the information that I want to know and, and also getting information that has so much bias behind it. So I just posted a couple of things on my platforms today, because one screenshot specifically was all about minimum wage. And it was just like, I read the description after 4540 minutes of just like, trying to find a non the least controversial topic I could find. Just because there's so many out there between, you know, environment and abortion and, and, and systemic racism, I mean, literally the topics that they have on their COVID. I mean, there's so many, so many topics that I felt like, Alright, let me find one that I feel like is the least controversial, but can at least get the point across that it's challenging for someone who's new to this, the voting space to get the information that is needed. And I was just like, I looked at the descriptions, and I'm like, this seems a little lopsided, it just seems like it's not real, you know, balanced for me, if I'm not educated at all, like I think of Mike Abramowitz, and I'm 1819 years old. And I don't know anything except what my parents told me, my teachers told me and what I see on social media, and if like, that's all the information I have, then that's what I'm going to be able to make my decisions off of, and then I see whatever's put on a ballot or put in front of me, I'm going to be like, Well, of course that makes that's a no brainer. Yeah, I'm gonna choose that. So with the minimum wage thing, it's like, Yeah, that one sounds really good. I'm gonna do that. But it's not like showing all the information. So I went on a, you know, a search, trying to find, where can I get the all the information where it's not just a snippet, where it's like, Where's all the ramifications? Where's all the consequences? Where's all the benefits? Where's all? Where's the what, why are people opposed to this? And why are people for this? And that way I can get some information and make a decision and discern through it. And unfortunately, I couldn't find it. And that's where I got picked off.

Andrew Biggs 3:00
I don't blame you, man. Yeah, I was joking with people the other day, I said, Yeah, we live in the information age. But it also could be called the disinformation age. And it's just like, there's so much information that, you know, and everybody has a an agenda. Everyone has like, an angle, right? There's a, there's a book called nudge, I haven't read it. But I've heard about this. And essentially, it's like how to use language to kind of nudge people towards, you know, actions you want them to take, and in very imperceptible ways, right in ways where it's like, you don't even realize you're being influenced because of the language and how something might be written. And so it's like, you know, I think it's a really good book for anybody who is going to use stuff like that ethically. And because it is kind of a dangerous tool to know, like, how to phrase things and how to word things. to, to kind of get your way. So yeah, I mean, I think you're making a really good point, maybe you're maybe you're inspiring an entrepreneur out there, who's sees a hole in the marketplace and can be excited about trying to find, you know, non biased information and present it. Right. So I think that that's really interesting, too. One of the things that I think is really important as we as you think about certain topics, you mean, you brought up some some really big topics, you know, whether it's COVID, or it's, you know, racism, or even minimum wage or whatever it is, we always need to be thinking about not just the direct consequence, and too often, there are not, there's not really deep thinking that goes into things, right. So I would say one of the better than rich principles is to be a deep thinker, and to think things through all the way to their logical conclusion, right? What happens if I accept the premise that the country is systemically racist, right? Like, what happens if I accept the, the, you know, if I if we raise minimum wage that sounds really great on paper. But it also might mean, you know, I work with some people who have a $15 minimum wage in their in their area, and they can't hire somebody because the job that is only a $10 an hour work, so why would they pay $15 an hour for it, they're just gonna not not pay someone. So that means that the alternative to for that person is not getting hired so that their minimum wage is zero, right? And so it's like, there's the second in order, you know, third order consequences. And then there's these dynamic tensions that are pulling on it's like, consumer protections and employee protections, but also like, you know, a thriving economy and like, that's how these sorts of things need to be thought through is like, what are the second order third order consequences. $15 minimum wage sounds amazing, right. And also, some jobs aren't worth 15 bucks. So, you know, those people just aren't going to get hired. So I don't know if anything spark enough for you. what's what's coming up on your side?

Mike Abramowitz 6:07
what shows up, and that's why I picked the minimum wage topic just because I my, in my opinion, I could speak openly about how silly some, some people might sound on that topic, because it's very easy. Like I'm as a business owner, I've, you know, been a business owner now for a decade and a half. And like, to your point, if they raise minimum wage, I'm going to outsource to non American workers to do the work because they're going to do it for less than I'm willing to pay because it's not $15. Now work. So essentially, we go from providing jobs, to not providing jobs to, to people in our society, which I just think is absolutely insane. But do so that woman's an easy topic for me to talk about openly. But the bigger issue is not the topic. For me, the bigger issue is discerning information and getting educated about about topics that are in our lives, we have to make decisions all the time. And this is just one easy example I could speak openly and passionate about I choose not to speak openly about I'm passionate about some topics. But I do feel like it's important to speak openly and passionate about discernment, discerning information, and getting educated because I think of 18 1920 year old Mike, I think about who I was, I think about how I wanted to make good choices. I thought maybe I was making good decisions. But most of the decisions I was making, a lot of it was based on bias, not based on actual education and information, it was opinions of people that were in my life. And I believe some of those opinions are really great. I also believe some of those opinions are very one sided, where they're not seeing, like you said, seeing it all the way through. You know, it's like I want to see it all the way through to the end, what is like the ramifications and the, you know, the the opposition's questions and things. So I and you taught me so much on this Andrew and that's why I thought it was a great topic for you to be able to talk to about today because, um, even this year in 2020, there's two main topics of COVID and, and the BLM movement that was taking place, those are two very sensitive topics as a business owner, that you and I had conversations with, where I had to discern and address in a way that I can be principled and anchored to seeing everything all the way through and you guided me through that and I thought it would really be helpful for any of our listeners to be able to kind of enter your paradigm of how you kind of see things through and you know, how you teach people are better than rich?

Andrew Biggs 9:19
Sure. So, you know, we're we're definitely, you know, wading into some interesting waters here and some treacherous waters that, you know, could could very easily, you know, trigger people. And I think one of the most interesting, you know, parts about trying to educate yourself is actually being willing to hear things that maybe you don't want to hear. Right. So it's like, you know, in order for me to be educated, that means I have to have my own assumptions questioned right? And you know, we've talked about this a little bit so far on several episodes, but it's like, you know, being having an open mind being willing to take on other perspectives. And that's really the only way you're ever gonna learn anything, right? Whether it's, you know, if you, are you if you're married to your belief system that two plus two equals five, you know, well, life's not gonna go very well for you, right? So, you know, I always want to hear opposing points of view, especially if you feel very strongly about a certain issue, you should really understand the counter argument. Because that's only going to make your belief system stronger, right? Like when you actually have thought through the other person's point of view. So I was doing a call for our community, and I taught them about the concept of steel Manning versus straw Manning. So straw Manning means basically, what you're doing is you're taking like a caricature of the argument of a particular topic, instead of like, the actual topic, right? So you're kind of trying to think of an example. But it's like, oh, you know, everybody who, who is pro pro industry and pro business, like, they don't care about the environment, and they're over there to just drive in their cars, and then everyone's polluting, and it's just like, you kind of come up with like a caricature of it. It's not a great example. But what you really should be doing is Steele Manning people's arguments. And basically giving people the benefit of the doubt, right, and basically going into every single nook and cranny into in any sort of perspective, and then walking you through your own logic, and see where there's where there's reason and logic, and what they're saying. And then obviously, find the faults in their logic as well, if there is any. So that's, that's step one is like, you should always be kind of giving the devil what to do whenever you're trying to think through something and think through both sides. Right? Now, one of the words you brought up several times already is bias. So I just went over to Wikipedia, anybody can do this. And I typed in cognitive bias, right? So go to list of cognitive biases. There are like, there must be 100, or, or So here, you know, let's just let's just read some here. anchoring, right, the tendency to rely too heavily or anchor on one piece of information when making decisions. Okay, there you go. There's a cognitive bias.

Sorry. Let's see, like, I'm trying to find one that's like more common, the Dunning Kruger effect, the tendency for unskilled individuals to overestimate their own ability and the tendency for experts to underestimate their own ability. There's so many, right? There's the gamblers fallacy, the tended, the tendency to believe that future probabilities are altered are altered by past events, right? So if I go to the roulette wheel, and it's read, you know, six times in a row, then I know it's going to be black next time, right? Because, you know, even though it's an individual event, so it's not actually impacted whatsoever by previous events. There's so many cognitive biases, and if you're walking through life, and you're not even thinking about, you know, the sunk cost fallacy, or your own, you know, ways that you, your brain is actually kind of, it's not completely, you know, logical all the time, that you're going to be, you know, in a world of pain, because you're not gonna be able to discern anything. So, that's my little rant. what's what's coming up for you, Mike?

Mike Abramowitz 13:29
It's, it's so um, it's so critical. For each individual, to be willing to question things, in my opinion, I think it's important to just question lead with curiosity. So, to Andrew, to your point, you say, okay, as when I say, when you when you say, this is the opposite and opposing argument of whatever I might think, by you at least willing to be curious of what someone thinks that way, why do they think that way? And then I, you could go down that, you know, paradigm of how they view the world and why they might believe that to be the truth and why they go down that path and, okay, now I can forge my own opinion, after I can think critically through this. And then I could say, well, I agree with that, or I don't agree with that. But at least present me with the information so I can make some of those decisions without the bias. I mean, and and so that's, that's my thought.

Andrew Biggs 14:45
Totally. On that topic, you know, one one general rule that we should all have is like, if you can't understand someone's perspective without making them evil, or stupid, then you probably haven't thought through their perspective very well. Especially if it's a large, large group. I mean, are there individual actors out there in the country in the world who are evil or stupid? Sure. But if it's a, you know, if there's a lot of people that, you know, you think half the country is evil, you know, you're wrong, right? Do you think half the country is stupid?

Mike Abramowitz 15:23
Yeah, why can't you go? Like, why? Why can't you know, we say we say left, right, you know, and if you're in the middle, it's like, well, it's irrelevant, you know, you know, it's not gonna, you know, it's not gonna make change or you know, you gotta you got to choose a side, you know, like, it's almost it creates the divisiveness. And obviously, we're talking about politics, but even in relationship, you know, if it's male, female, it's like, you know, you're different than me. So therefore, you're never going to see it the way I see it. And that's why we talk about polarities, we talk about feminine energy and masculine energy, we we are able to access both. It's not right or or left, it's not male or female, masculine or feminine, black or white. Like, there, there is a middle there is it does exist. And I think it's important for us to question that to say, why, why do I like, alone time and quiet time and as a man to get a massage or get a pedicure or something like that? Which would be my my definition of maybe a feminine activity. But it feels good. I like it, why would I not? You know, like, so? It's so there is an in between? Yeah, and I don't think that talked about enough. Right?

Andrew Biggs 16:58
Um, you know, one of the things that, you know, I really pride myself on and I, I try to teach people as much as possible, I know, you're somebody who's learned a lot of this is is the word access. And so what I mean by access is, you know, masculine, feminine, courageous, or, or fearful. You know, introvert, extrovert, lazy, hardworking, these different polarities on different things that you need. The answer isn't what's right, and what's wrong? The answer is what's right, for which circumstance, right? So sometimes I want to be like, hyper masculine, and go tell, you know, somebody on my team, exactly what's up in no uncertain terms, and they need to know and they need to change or they need to leave. And I need to be really, really clear that sometimes that is exactly what's needed in a business context. Sometimes it's the exact opposite. Sometimes I need to show up as my, my team teammates, you know, almost like a therapist, or just, like, hold space for them and just ask them questions, and, you know, let them cry. And it's the exact opposite, right? That's needed. But too often, we kind of fit into one or the other. We think that, you know, one strategy is the winning strategy, you know, I want to have a run my business more like, you know, a badass or I want to run my business with more about love and emotion, it's like, I want it all, you know, I want access to both and access to all of my options, so that I can, you know, choose what's right for the circumstance. You know, the question isn't what's the right leadership style? The real question is, what's the right leadership style for the moment? So what comes up for you there on this term access?

Mike Abramowitz 18:50
So how would somebody go ahead and if somebody wanted to even know what the options are, that they can access? So you know, say if for example if they only are presented one way of thinking you know, if you're if they're raised in a household where it's like it's it's my way or the highway Do as I say, not as I do if you know if money is the root of all evil, like they're raised in an environment where that's all they're exposed to where they don't, they don't even know what to access so they don't know the other end of it because they're misinformed, or they're only informed by one lens. How would someone know? How do how would how would one know what the other end of the spectrum is for them to act? I don't know if that makes sense. But

Andrew Biggs 19:50
sure. I mean, one of the classic things people, you know recommend is to experience a lot of different things, right? There's When you think about one of the one of the hero archetypes is like this capacity to go into any circumstance in a situation, you know, it's kind of theorized that the, you know, this goes way back to the story of Jacob in the Bible, you know, he has a coat of many colors. And this coat of many colors means he's, he's kind of a man of the world, you know, he's, he's somebody who can can act has access to a lot of different things. And I, you know, I think that that's one thing is like, try to try to see, put yourself in situations where you don't feel comfortable. I think that's, that's one thing, one big thing you can do is travel, right? Because if you live in a bubble, and then you go to get out, like, for me, I lived in India for five years, we lived in Mexico for like, four or five months, you know, obviously, I've been all over the world seen a lot of different places. But if you travel, you're going to expand your horizons, you're going to travel is going to expand, you know, your capacity of, of where you can go comfortably, is one thing. And then, you know, don't be so threatened by having your assumptions, you know, agitated. So often, you know, we are attached to our ideas and our beliefs, because we think we are our beliefs, you know, so if you go to a fundamental Christian, and you start talking to them about evolution, you know, they're gonna have a hard time wanting to have that conversation. But that's not you know, the best way we should go about things it should be okay, well, let me learn everything I can about evolution, see what the theory is, and see if either I need to change my worldview, or I can dispense with evolution, because I've read the literature and it's, you know, it's not, you know, I don't believe it, right, you come to that conclusion, or maybe you find a way to synthesize the two, yes, this is true. And this is true in a different way. So don't be afraid to to have your ideas. You know, challenged is another thing. The last thing I'll just say is, once you kind of know what the, like what you need to work on, you know, I needed to work on having a backbone once. And so I was standing in line, American Airlines had canceled my flight, like two times in a row, and just like, sent me back to a hotel. I was stuck in Dallas, my family was in Cancun, it was just like a nightmare. sort of situation. And, you know, we were all standing in line to board the flight, and then immediately it just says, canceled flight. And everyone, some people are going on vacation. You know, kids are crying because their family vacations ruined. You know, for me, it wasn't that bad. But I was just like, This is unacceptable. And I'm normally the guy who's like, really, really nice to customer service people, you know, because I know how it is. And I'm just like, hey, it's not your fault, that kind of thing. But this time, I was like, I'm not leaving until I have a flight. Like, it's not gonna happen, like, I need to fight. They're like, well, I can't do that. So I'm like, well, then I'm not leaving. Like, well, we needed to, well, I'll talk to my supervisor, they're gonna tell you the same thing. Okay, get them over here. And sure enough, like we got through. So it's like, it was super uncomfortable for me, right? to like, have that backbone in that moment. And like demand and like kind of be like, a jerk about because that's not my nature. But it was like I needed practice at that. I'm like having boundaries. So you can practice these things that make you really uncomfortable. I don't know what's coming up for you, man.

Mike Abramowitz 23:32
What came up was when you when you were talking about the evolution versus religion? And you said do you willing to listen to the other sides? Listen to the opposing, whatever it is that so if you were raised one way, and, you know, how would somebody be able to find the willingness to be open to the other vantage point because it's like I was raised this way my entire life. I was raised to believe this certain way I'm holding to my belief system, because that's my identity. How would somebody become more willing to at least listen to the other side openly? And then you know, either strengthen their beliefs to what they are holding on to or end or at least understand or empathize with the other with their their vantage point?

Andrew Biggs 24:30
It's a good question. One thing you may consider is like, what's the consequence of not being willing to challenge your belief system? So let's, let's let's try to see if we can answer that together. What's the consequences of not being willing to challenge your belief system? One thing that comes up for me is, well, I'm not going to have a very sophisticated model of the world. Right, because I'm basically just taking the beliefs of someone else, in many ways I can't even land like, really be firmly planted in my own beliefs, because they don't go very deep, right, they're like, really well thought out. So if I don't have a very sophisticated model of the world, what happens when we have a less sophisticated model of the world is we get surprised. And sometimes surprises are nice, but sometimes they're not. Right. So if your model and belief system is like, hey, if I work hard, and I go to college, and I take out $100,000, in loans, and I get my college degree, that I'm going to have a six figure job waiting after, you know, waiting for me, because that's what my parents told me. And that's what their parents told them. And, you know, this is just, that's the order of how we things are. And you know, your parents told you, you're really special. So of course, you think you're gonna hit a six figure job on day one. And then that doesn't happen, right? Because you didn't really think through this thing, you just accepted the belief, then you're going to be in a world of pain when you graduate, when the best job you can find is 40 grand. And you know, you have a student loan payment through the roof that you're never going to be able to get rid of. So that's just an example. But that's one consequence that came up for me, what what about you like anything else come up terms of the car? Yeah.

Mike Abramowitz 26:17
I like what you said, you said, taking the beliefs of someone else, it could potentially it could be create potential consequences, because we're not seeing the entire scope of what's in front of us, we're only seeing one side, we're seeing one vantage point using that example. It's, I go to college, I get my degree, and I get my six figure job, even though I accumulated $100,000 in debt along the way, but that's the path. And that's the only thing I've been exposed to. And therefore I'm going to hold on to this belief. And if someone comes at me, it's like, well, are you sure you're guaranteed the job after college? It's like, Yes, I am. That's what my parents told me. And then if you're only surrounded around other people who've done the same thing, it's like, the five people that I also went to, you know, my five older siblings, that's what they did. And that's what my neighbor's friend did. So therefore, that's all I'm exposed to. So all I see and witness are the eight people who got their degree, graduated with that, and then got their good job. So therefore, I'm exposed to a very small sample size, I'm exposed to this bias information, I'm not exposed to the potential consequences of the debt, I'm not exposed to what I could do with that money. By putting it to work early and early in my life and benefiting from compounding interest, I'm not exposed to other ways that I can generate, you know, generate education outside of just traditional education. I'm not exposed to other worldviews that are out there. I'm only exposed to this one, this one lens. So I think it's worth us continuing to talk about Andrew, what are those potential consequences of someone being so narrow, narrow with their vantage point? And why we want to continue to expose more curiosity and, and and continue to help people be willing to see other vantage points?

Andrew Biggs 28:19
Yeah, totally. Well, again, just the one of the consequences of not questioning your belief system, you're gonna have an insufficiently you're gonna have a very simple model of the world. That's not complex enough. Right? So we talked a little bit earlier, we were talking about single, like, some, for some people. One thing explains the world, right? So it's like, but here's the thing, the world is way too complex. For one thing to explain the world. So it's like, for example, you will look at disparities in income between whites and blacks. And then, of course, you will make the assumption that racism is the is the cause, right? Maybe racism is the cause. But is it the only cause? Maybe it's a certain percentage, maybe it's 5%? I don't know. Maybe it's 50. Some people think it's 100%. Some people might think it's 50%. You know, maybe it's like one to 5%. And my perspective, I don't know, maybe even less, but it's like, maybe it's one of the causes, but then it's like what are the other causes? Well, what about education system? What about access to resources? What about fathers in the home, you can you can run a multi factor analysis. So whenever you have a one way of looking at things, then you know, you're going to be have an insufficient model of the world, you're gonna be able to make good decisions. Basically, whenever one thing explains the world, right? It's called an ideology. And you know, that ideology, people do crazy things in the name of ideology. And, you know, we're seeing some already, you know, and and we also see some, you know, you can go back through history and read all the people who thought they were doing great things, you know, and ushering in the utopia, and murdering millions of people. And so it's ideology is a very, very, very dangerous thing to do. And one of the things I like to do, through better than riches, to do my best to like inoculate people against ideology, so that they can actually think for themselves. I feel like I'm getting somewhere to your point to your question, I don't know, that's good.

Mike Abramowitz 30:36
No, it's great. It's such a, it's great. Because, you know, Andrew, you're such a great thought leader, where you will be willing to question certain things. And yes, you have your own opinions, but you're also willing to help someone forge their own opinion, by just asking good questions. And you've raised me to do that in the last over the last couple of years. It's just like, question certain things. Because without that curiosity, and without that willingness to question, I know, there's going to be consequences I'm going to be, and there's no way I'm going to be able to be as an effective leader, if I'm not willing to help other people come up with their own stance, because then they're going to build a foundation that is based upon just that, like you said, that cognitive bias off of off of somebody else, they're, they're never coming up with their own, you know, their, their own foundation, and what's the old saying, if you don't stand for something, you're gonna fall for everything. And we want to develop leaders that are willing to stand for things, but they can't stand on principles that are built on fear from their parents, or fear from social media or misinformation. I mean, we're seeing it right now how, you know, there's all these the lawsuits, if you turn on the news of like, Twitter and Facebook, you know, not sharing certain information. And it's like, I shared a couple episodes ago about my relationship with the media, because, you know, they took one story, and they over exaggerated, embellished it to push more newspapers because they had an agenda. So it's like, if I don't question things, and it's all I accept is that I'm going to then raise my kids in this way to be one sided, I'm going to raise my employees this way to be one side, or anyone in my organization to be in this ideology, like you talk about. And that's not real leadership. If we want to be really better than rich, and we want to really understand that has nothing to do with just wealth of money. And we want to really reach fulfillment in our lives and around and create some positive change in our societies that we live in. We've got to be willing to, to be curious and question things and and discern the information that's given to us. And oftentimes, I find injured or maybe you could speak to this that some people just come up with the resolution that it's not worth it. Because what Who am I to try to change something that's corrupt? It's just corrupt, there's no change that can be created. That's just how it's going to be. So what why even try? Why even bother? And then that creates some discouragement to say, you know what, you're right. And then all the haters, you know, the haters come out of nowhere, all this trolls come out of nowhere, and they're like, Yeah, kind of attack you on your beliefs. And it's like, no, shut up, stay in your lane. So if maybe you could speak to something, something that maybe can help a listener that says, I am willing, I do want to learn, I want to educate myself, I want to get opinions, you know, forge my own opinions. Yeah. How do I discern, or you know what I mean,

Andrew Biggs 34:14
one of the biggest, like, starting points for me was just exposure to thought leaders that I really respected. You know, hopefully, that's one of the reasons you're watching the show. And, and listening to the show right now, because you respect, you know, whatever I have to say, or what Mike has to say, or what our guests have to say, or at least we'll give our guests a shot. That doesn't also mean that you agree with everything, right? Like that's never what I asked, but, you know, hopefully there's some respect there. And, you know, you got to find thought leaders that can actually speak truth into your life. And you know, I'm a big believer that the, you know, when the student is ready, that, you know, the teacher appears. And, you know, there's people like Tony Robbins out there, there's, you know, you know, Ed, my lad, there's Lewis Howes, there's all these Different guys. You know and girls do you know there's some some really amazing women in the space as well. But one of the things I started to really crave was like a deeper, you know, thought leader, like somebody who was who is really, really thought through issues thoughtfully. And also, like, I kind of got a little like, I'll even be honest, I'm a little bit like out right now, I don't even know how I feel about it. But like I'm a little bit out right now on some of like the Whoo, you know, hype up sort of stuff in the personal development space. I know it like it works. So like, part of me is like, man, I should probably like, you know, get back into it. And those sorts of things. Like maybe I'm, I'm overcorrecting a little bit to this, like, you know, scientific approach. But I want like people who really know what they're talking about, not people who are like, you know, if you just believe then it's going to happen for you. Like, I'm sick of these like slogans. Like, I want people who have really done the work. So I'll just, I'll share with you guys the intellectual darkweb. Mike, are you familiar with these guys? Or no? Maybe I don't know. Okay, that's fine. So the intellectual darkweb is it's like coined the term, just these like people who are heterodox in their thinking, which basically means they are, you know, they don't really fit neatly into a box, they don't fit into like, right or left or like, they don't fit neatly into one little thing. So they, you know, people like Eric Weinstein, Brett Weinstein, their brothers, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, you know, Joe Rogan, these these casts of characters, Heather hiring, is really great. These these, these characters, really, really, really can can think through things, you know, Rogan's a little bit more like an interviewer. But these, these other guys have really thought through things, you know, Dave Rubin is another one. And if you're willing to just expose yourself to some of these things, now, by the way, sometimes people will say, Don't listen to Joe Rogan, because he's transphobic. Or they'll say something like that. It's like, if you go listen to what they have to say, people are smearing these people, generally, because they can't compete with their ideas. And they're angry, and the best way to do it is to smear them, right, which is pretty inevitable for anybody who's sharing their opinions these days, as long as you know, anytime you fall out of that, like the dogma of the culture where the common culture is, you're smeared, right? Your Spirit are racist, or transphobic, or, you know, homophobic, Islamophobic, like all the phobics in the world, right? To the point now where these words have basically lost all their meaning. But it's like, that's why you have to go and do the investigation yourself, though, and actually listen and actually see, you know, because if this person really is you're going to know really quickly, but if you actually pay attention to their work, right, and be willing to, you know, most of the stuff that I engage with is like, as minimum an hour, you know, and sometimes I'm listening to stuff for like, three, four hours, you know, really, really deep work. So, exposure, you know, is is a really important thing. What's coming up for you?

Mike Abramowitz 38:14
Yeah, I really like what you said is is fine thought leaders who speak truth. And, you know, the, there's always so many cliche sayings, the truth will set you free. And you know, I mean, the truth is, is out there for you to find of whatever it means to you. And there are people that align with what you believe. I just think it's important to get out of just who is convenient for you to be exposed to and go seek out principle, break base, principled base leaders, thought leaders that are out there. And I stumbled actually across ben shapiro on the Joe Rogan show, and listen to one of his things and it was like, he contextualized some of my thoughts, like he's able to put some of the thoughts that I've had into words that I was like, wow, that makes sense. And, you know, I'll hear some individuals talk about things that I'm able to align with that makes sense with me sometimes I'll hear you know, just I love Joe Rogan. I mean, he does he does have a lot of really great guests, you know, Jordan Peterson he had on there and I think can't maybe Candace Owens was on there. And

Andrew Biggs 39:34
he's had basically everybody from every walk of life from every, you know, left, right center, all the above. He just had alex jones on they were talking about aliens and smoking pot and just like, you know, going, just all sorts of crazy stuff. You know, that's really nonpartisan, right? It's just like, because he was saying like Alex Jones. Initially when he first met him, he was like, protest. George Bush, right? Like, because he, you know, didn't believe that george bush was was ethical. So it's like, these people tend to, you know, they don't fit neatly into our boxes, we like to label people. But it's like when you actually just try to listen to somebody, it also don't ever take anybody's word as like, completely true. Like, I'm always trying to filter through my own, you know? Yes. And sometimes I'm listening to people I really respect I'm like, that's a bad take, like, you're wrong, you know? Like, I don't I don't agree, you know, I agree with 80% of what you said, but not that. So. Um, when

Mike Abramowitz 40:35
someone changes, and when someone changes their opinion, they're like, Oh, you flip flop? Like, well, maybe, or I got informed or educated and saw a new stance, and I've evolved. Yeah, why is that bad?

Andrew Biggs 40:51
Totally. Exactly. I mean, I actually think that's almost like a prerequisite for somebody that I want to learn from is like a willingness to change their mind, and a willingness to admit where they're wrong, you know. So I think that these these sorts of, like, you know, rules to go by, you know, to somebody really, kind of, are they kind? Do they always give the benefit of the doubt to people do? Are they willing to change their mind, you know, when presented with new information, a lot of times, even I think we're doing a fairly good job modeling this on the show, it's like, you know, instead of coming in with an agenda or a, you know, so being so firm, it's actually like, I want to have the discussion and determine it together, right. And this is actually a really good principle for coaching in general, which is, a lot of times someone asked for my advice, and I'm like, I don't know, like, I don't know, let's, let's figure it out, you know, and I'm going on the, the inquiry phase, and ride with them. So we can just try to actually arrive at what the best answer is. And we kind of make one case and we make another case and was like, Well, it looks like this case is better. Like do you agree and you know that's how we arrive at a lot of decisions. So yeah, man, this is this has been fun. What What else? I mean, we can start to head towards the exits here. But anything else coming up for you on on discernment in the modern era. I think we did a good job today. It also like they're set like this goes super deep. So we can probably jam on this for future episodes at some point, too. But yeah, what else is coming up for you?

Mike Abramowitz 42:27
Yeah, it is. And it just, what's showing up is right now, it's not going to be you know, perfect. Um, you know, at this moment, I don't think someone's gonna listen to this episode and say, Wow, I had the the secret ingredient now to discern. But what I do believe we're getting accomplished right? Now, ideally, is you Li leave this conversation, say, Okay, can I be curious? You know, can it Can I, can I move past my, my self imposed paradigm of the world, you know, where, meaning you see a homeless person on the side of the street, and then you make up a story about that person? Can we move past that? Can we move past these, these thought patterns that are put into our mind that says, oh, they're like this? So Oh, how about this one? I met someone named Karen once. So therefore, Karen is her name. So therefore, she's probably like this. And they're that like this association of the past? Meaning that's going to be the present or the future. Can we move past that? Can we be curious? Can we see a homeless person on the side of the road and say, I'm curious of how they got there. And then you see another homeless person say, oh, they're probably the same as that other one. No, it's like, I'm curious what their story is. You meet someone named Karen, and you're like, it's not like, Oh, you must be like all the other Karen's I met? No, it's, it's nothing to do, like move past that shit. You know, be willing to be be be willing to be curious, be willing to question be willing to just say, the past doesn't equal the future. I can be open, I can be willing, I can question with curiosity. Open, I don't have an agenda. If someone else has an agenda, I can at least question it. And if they're not willing to allow me to question that agenda, well, that's on them, not on me. I'm not going to stay in my box because that's where they want to keep me. I'm going to think outside the box. I'm going to think creatively. I'm going to find thought leaders who are willing to think creatively and not stay in their box. I'm going to learn from them. podcasts, books, you know, lessons or lectures or seminars and, and be willing to adapt, be willing to evolve. And if you can listen to this conversation. At least it's see That there is a need for thought leaders to think this way. And if you're willing to kind of enter that space with us, I think that's the path towards fulfillment towards real leadership towards authentic an authentic approach to change and evolving as as a human species and not relying on other people to do the heavy lifting for us and, and not relying on politicians do the work or, you know, the government to do the work for us that we're able to, you know, incapable of thinking for ourselves as long as we're willing to do some of that inner work.

Andrew Biggs 45:36
Hmm, totally, man, there's so much good stuff here. And, you know, just just learning how to think how to think in general is really what I'm sensing is the biggest thing and how to pay attention to context over content. And really, like try to have like maps and models that help you explain how the world works, which is it's one of my favorite topics, and it's also super complex, but it's a that's why what's kind of I love it, but hey, man, this has been fun. I will call it from here, let everyone go on with their evening. Thanks for joining us if you joined us live. And if you listened back, I hope you guys enjoyed the show. Thanks for joining and remember to leave today. Better than you found it thanks bye.