Changing Someone's Life | The Better Than Rich Show Ep. 11

How to Have Transformative Conversations

〰️

How to Have Transformative Conversations 〰️

Changing Someone’s Life

The point of having a transformative conversation is to change a person's feelings. So starting with the end in mind is important. We need to know our end goal of the conversation first to then ensure everything is aligned with our original goal.

To find our end goal we need to be aware of what the person might need help or support on. Once we have thought about everything with the end in mind, we need to start our conversation approaching with curiosity and empathy.

Balancing empathy with curiosity is important when starting a transformative conversation. We need to have flexibility with our intentionality, we can have assumptions but we also need to be willing to let those go if we are wrong. Set intentions but be willing to throw them out the window deepening on how the individual shows up.

How to Know When to Pivot

When we show up with complete presence and meet a person where they are at they are able to sense that. Same goes for if we are distracted while having a conversation. When we seem like we aren’t present then the likelihood of having a transformative conversation is very low. No one wants to share about themselves to someone who isn’t actively listening.

When we are preparing to have transformative conversations we need to clear our mind of all previous thoughts and conversations to set our focus on what’s at hand.Then when we are fully present we are able to catch onto the small cues that help us know when to pivot.

Those cues can be body language, eye contact, and language patterns. Language patterns would be like the use of the word need which comes from a place of scarcity, if a person uses the word them or constantly blames other people there isn’t much responsibility, or if someone says they aren’t sure they have a relationship with uncertainty. These are subtle cues to pay attention to that will help us read between the lines.

The Nuts and Bolts to Transformative Conversations

Rapport: This isn’t just about catching up or chatting about favorite sports teams. We want to match energies with the individual. Ask ourselves “How is this person feeling”. Understanding what frame of mind and energy level the person we are speaking to is in is important throughout the entire conversation but especially when framing the conversation.

Pre-Frame: Laying out the goals or objectives of the conversation, how we’ll get there, building credibility, next steps, and agreement. This is a preview of the conversation so whomever we talk to understands what we are looking to get out of the call and can bring up anything they would like to add to the conversation and then you both can agree on the outline or pre-frame. This also helps keep the conversation on track.

Discovery: Curiosity is in full use during this step, this is where we begin asking those deeper questions. We can ask the why of certain actions to allow them to bring what’s real to the surface. Then we just ask them to tell us more about it, why it’s important, who it’s important to. We enter and then question how they see the world. In this stage we are trying to get to the root of things.

If someone isn’t answering our questions sometimes it isn’t that they don’t have answers it’s that they aren’t comfortable enough with us to give us those answers. So we need to ensure that we create a safe space where they feel comfortable enough to share.

Once we have an idea where they are at we want to ask consequence based questions.

“What is the consequence of you continuing these actions, what would it be like if you did solve this problem?”

Consequence questions inspire action because it allows people to focus on the pain and pleasure revolved around their actions and they become more connected to them.

Transformation happens through the tunnel of pain, so we can’t skip over it or avoid it. We need them to be in tune with this emotion as much as we are will all others. Practice is key, learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable. If they are in tune with their pain the changes introduced within the conversation can change into long term commitment.

Commitment Check: This stage is where we simply ask them how committed they are to the changes or advancements previously discussed. They are given an option of 1-10 to represent their commitment level. If their commitment level is anything less than 10 we need to continue to have a conversation on why.

Generally, what keeps people from being fully committed to their goals or change is fear, fear of failure, other’s opinions, etc. We need them to be fully in at 10 or they will not follow through.

If we have done a good job with the conversation thus far, then we should have already created a space of comfort, and can ask questions to get to the core of why they aren’t committing to get them committed.

Mike Abramowitz 0:11
Welcome to the better than rich show with your hosts Andrew Biggs and Mike Abramowitz. The better than rich show helps ambitious leaders who are on a mission to leave the world better than they found it changed their perspective on what's important, increase their income and impact and systemize their life and business. If you've ever struggled with finding your purpose and felt disconnected or distracted or found yourself going through the motions, this show will remind you that what you do matters and will re inspire you to chase your highest dreams. It's time for you to become better than rich.

Andrew Biggs 0:51
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the better than rich Show. I'm your host Andrew Biggs and I'm here with my co host, Mike Abramowitz. Mike, how're you doing today?

Mike Abramowitz 1:00
Always a great day. How are you Andrew?

Andrew Biggs 1:02
I'm doing great man doing well. We got like four inches of snow overnight. So it you know, we don't get snow very often in Arkansas, when we do everything shuts down people go crazy. So yeah,

Mike Abramowitz 1:13
we got the 70 degree weather here, man.

Andrew Biggs 1:15
I'm, I'm heading Miami next week. So it should get a little bit of sunshine should be fine. Well, hey, man, I'm excited about today's topic, I definitely think it's something that people tell us we're good at. Right. And you know, generally, I don't like to pat myself on the back. But if enough people say that we're good at something, I'll at least take that as a compliment. And, you know, give myself some authority on it. By the way, see a few people live, if you are here with us live on the Facebook page, you can go ahead and send your comments in. And we can actually, you know, interact with you live during the show. And that will also make the recording as well. So if you're here with us live, feel free to jump in and mention that if you have any questions or comments. But here's today, Thomas, today's topic of conversation is how to have transformative conversations. And you know, a lot of people that I work with, and I assume you can relate to this. Want to know how do you actually get someone over the edge? How do you have someone change and change for good? And maybe you're sitting there listening, asking yourself? Well, I've tried to put new things in place or build new habits. It's the start of the year, maybe you'd have some new year's resolutions this year. And you're asking yourself, well, how do I move past the point of no return and actually make a transformative change in my life? So that's the topic of today. So Mike, I would love to kick it to you to kick us off. And yeah, when you when you think about this question of how to have transformative conversations, where do you like to begin?

Mike Abramowitz 2:40
I like to begin with the end in mind. So it's like what is the desired outcome that I'd like to help this person either get to or feel at the end of the conversation. So I do this quite often, where anytime I look at my calendar for the day, I will take a moment and just look at each name of the person that I have on my calendar. And just think about what does this person need? And you know, from my lens, but also like try to empathize with their lens, like what are they going through? What do I feel like? What do I feel like they are at right now in life? What do I think they need? What do I think I want them to feel? And I'll just start to think with the end in mind before I show up to the conversation. And then once I get to the conversation, I'm always going to show up with curiosity, curiosity and empathy. Curious, where are you at empathize with whatever it is they're feeling. So I mean that that's my initial first reaction of like, if I'm going to go into a conversation, I want to make sure that I'm present to have a transformational conversation. What is my outcome? What about desired outcomes of the combo? How do I want them to feel? And also, can I make sure that I'm aligned with them? Curious, empathetic? So I can be as present as possible?

Andrew Biggs 3:52
Awesome. Yeah. And I was gonna ask a follow up where it's like you're setting intentions. But how do you also balance that with? What we don't know? Right? You know, to use the Johari Window analogy, if you don't know what your hobbies window is, you can look this up. But everyone has a blind spot. Everyone has a mask? How do you make sure that you actually get them to give you more information, instead of just making assumptions, because one of the things I recognize is, I like to set intentions, but if I set too many intentions, maybe I'll try to force my perspective onto the situation. And maybe my perspective is actually wrong. So don't have a complete picture. What are your What are your thoughts there?

Mike Abramowitz 4:31
I 100% valid and that's why it's the balance between the empathy and curiosity. It's like, I have ideas of what I think based on the evidence that's in front of me, but I'm also willing to pivot as needed as the conversation unfolds. So there's that flexibility that needs to be there. So yes, there's some level of intentionality that goes in before the combo and all of that goes out the window. It's almost like like a sport. You know, we have plays that we're calling but Sometimes you get to the line, and you got to call an audible, right? Like the play can only go so far, it's a good strategy until it's not

Andrew Biggs 5:05
sure. Sure, you know, one of my mentors used to say, plan tight and hang loose. And so the whole idea there is yes, have a plan coming in for a transformative conversation to take place, I do want to get into some nuts and bolts of how to actually have that conversation, but as a starting point, like set intentions, and then also be willing to throw, you know, any part of your plan out the window, depending on how that person shows up? And how do you know, right, I'll talk a little bit about how we know when to pivot. And yeah, I was talking with someone last night, a friend of ours, and he has an MBA, and he says, Yeah, you know, probably the only thing I remember from business school was the answer to every business question. And the answer to every business question is, it depends. And I think this whole balance between set intentions and half curiosity is a great example of that. So how do you know when to kind of push your agenda? And how do you know when to, you know, allow their new information to actually color the conversation and take it in a different direction? And the answer really is, it depends. But how do you know that. And that's why, you know, showing up with presence, right is so important. When we show up with complete presence, and we're able to really meet the moments for that person, they can sense that they can feel that they can also sense and feel when you're distracted, when you're sending emails, at the same time you're on the call, when you're actually thinking about the conversation that you had with your boss, you know, 30 minutes ago, when we are distracted, whether it's with home life, personal life, business life, anything that's on our minds, besides that person sitting in front of us on the Zoom, call that person on the other end line, where that person sitting in our office or out to lunch, or breakfast, or coffee, when we're anywhere else, the likelihood of a transformative conversation goes down dramatically, nobody's interested in opening up and sharing something that maybe they're uncomfortable sharing, which is sort of a prerequisite for transformation for transformation, if the person isn't present. So, you know, making sure that you set these intentions that you show up the right way, energetically, physiologically, that you actually have the awareness to pick up on subtle cues, you know, so that you know when to pivot, you can assess the line and the coverage package that, you know, the opposing team is showing up with and call the right apply the right audible in real time, like what do you what do you think about that?

Mike Abramowitz 7:34
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a great reflection of of, like what you said, you want to make sure that you in order to stay present, you got to kind of like, step, step away from what you were doing when you're stepping into the next activity that you're stepping into. So it's like, how do you do that? Well, first, there's the drop down menu for me is like, I got to breathe. When I'm zoom hopping, I don't know, if you're guilty of zoom hopping, when I'm just compensation conversations like I do, I do a box breath that's been very helpful, which is in for six, hold for six out for six, breathe, you know, relax for six in for six out, you know, it's like six second box breath, usually one or two rounds of that just kind of get re centered. Before I go into my next conversation, so that way, I'm not bringing the past into the into the present. I think it's really important. I also think, to the question that you said, it's like, how do you know? How do you know what, you know if this what this person might need? Or how do you know what this person is feeling? Or how do you know, if they're like being full, fully closed? You know, like, how do we know? How does how does the coach or the person of influence know if this other person showing up to call, I don't care if it's their parent, I don't care if it's their significant other? I'm curious to hear from you on that, like, how do you know intuitively, that this person is withholding something or they're not playing full out? Or if they're not, you know, if all the cards aren't on the table, you know, using all these like little metaphors here?

Andrew Biggs 9:12
Well, one of the, you know, more interesting things that, you know, from a psycho analyst perspective, I think it was Carl Rogers, who's a famous psychologist from back in the day kind of from the lineage of Freud. And then you, Carl Rogers is very influential in that perspective. And he had a he had a kind of a maxim, a concept that he said, if the conversation isn't interesting, then there's nothing therapeutic taking place. And, you know, I think that that's insanely true. When I am very interested in the conversation and they are very interested in conversation. It's at least creating the potential field for us to create a transformation. So then how do you know if something's Interesting? Well use your own parameter. Is this an interesting conversation or not? That's a wonderful really intuitive way to do it. But you know, some other ways that are, you know, really interesting as well would be, you know, to pay attention to subtle cues, right? And what sort of subtle cues could you pay attention to? You could pay attention to their body language? How are they holding themselves? How are they carrying themselves, you can pay attention to their level of eye contact, you can definitely pay attention to I would say their language patterns, right. So pay attention to subtle ways that they phrase something in their, in their language patterns will give you clues and hints about where this person's at, you know, talking with somebody about a relationship that they're in, and there's just little clues, and you can kind of pick up and I'm like, do you really trust this person? 100%? Or not? Like, yeah, I don't how did you know? And the only way you can tell is by looking for these subtle clues and hints. When we think about, you know, things being reflective. In nature, we're thinking about, like, you know, light reflecting off of something. And so then we know it's true. Well, the same thing is true with our how we carry ourselves. We are some you know, some things people can conceal and hide, but other things they can't and body language, you know, their eye contact, subtle cues about how their language comes out. They can't do so much as anything, feel free to come up for you on that mic in terms of subtle cues to pay attention to to know if we're on the right track or not.

Mike Abramowitz 11:24
There was three that showed up for me that just jotted down that that are cues for me that I that helped me read between the lines. So the three read between the lines for me is if I hear someone say the word need, if I hear someone consistently using the word they are like other people, or if they're using the words like not sure. So anytime I hear them, say the word need that shows like, okay, there's potential for scarcity. So it's like, oh, I just need to make phone calls, I just need to, you know, get my money in order, I just need to hit the gym a little bit more. So that means they're coming from a place of scarcity. So I'm going to kind of feel into that a little bit. And just see if that's the truth. Sometimes the language gives us clues. So you have the clues from the language, you have the clues from their their physiology. So you just kind of use some of those clues. And it's like, cool, then I could feel into that with God, tell me a little bit more about need, what's your relationship with need? Versus want, you know, might be a question to explore, if they say they like something like, Oh, my mom keeps talking to me about this, or my manager talks about this, or, you know, they constantly are talking about this and the media. And that's just, they're just like, they're just this or they're just that. So it's almost like this blame. So that means they're not taking some sort of responsibility for something. So that's a cue of like, they don't want to take ownership. So there's some sort of barrier or ego or something that I want to kind of bring down that wall and at least open up the conversation around that. So that's a cue for me. And the other one is, like, I'm not sure I'm just not sure if I really want that I'm not sure. Like, is this the right time? Or, you know, I just have a lot going on right now. So I'm just really uncertain are not sure. So it's like, if they have this, this really, you know, what's the relationship with uncertainty. And that might be something that I might want to explore with them. So that way, it doesn't become debilitating. But we can also explore like finding certainty within certainty, or maybe it could be a self confidence thing. So these are three really good cues that anybody can use just to kind of, kind of bring down the barrier to entry and just start asking questions around that. So it's like, Hey, tell me a little bit more about your relationship with uncertainty, insecurity, you know, blaming him, you know, confidence or something like that, and just see what type of floodgates open up.

Andrew Biggs 13:39
Awesome. Awesome. And, you know, so one of the things that I mentioned earlier is I want to share a little bit of like, nuts and bolts, right? There's kind of like the art of sight of the art of transformation. And there's the science, a lot of what we're discussing so far are like, you know, in some ways, like prerequisites or a little bit more like the art of like, you know, okay, when do I want to, like, you know, use my paintbrush and use this sort of stroke or when do I want to use this sort of tool versus that sort of tool. One of the one of the things that I think is also really useful, though, is to give people tools that are a little bit more scientific. And in my opinion, there's a little bit of an arc to this conversation. So I'll share kind of a few things with this conversation. We'll have much more time to go in depth at our event it's going to be a topic for Sunday's covers conversation at the VIP experience on March 20. When we when we beat in tap alive, but here's like an overview of this conversation to kind of give you guys some idea, like a skeleton of what this conversation could look like. So you know, generally speaking, right off the bat, we want to build rapport really quickly though, and it's not just build report like how have you bad how's the weather or whatever. It's a lot of like, syncing up energetically. I want to ask myself, you know, what kind of mood is this person and what's what's their energy level? You know, are they? Are they focused or they distracted? And the best way to do that is just kind of ask an open ended question that gets them talking for 60 to 90 seconds, right? So it could just be, you know, hey, you know, I know we haven't, you know, talked in a while, but how you know how things fit with the family, by the way, we haven't chatted on that in a while, and just let them rant for 60 seconds, it gives me a time time to actually understand, like, it's almost a transition into the conversation. If it's a sales conversation, I really like to ask something simple, like, hey, you know, hey, I don't know too much about you, whereabouts in the country are you located, and they just kind of talk about where they're where they're from. And because a lot of sales actually is a transformative conversation, when you think about it, we're trying to take somebody with from not actually having a solution to a problem to investing in a solution to a problem that are what the product or service you're providing is. So that that opening section is really simple. But then the next thing is called a pre frame, right? And a pre frame is maybe, you know, again, probably 30 to 90 seconds. But basically what I'm doing is I'm laying out what our goals are, what our objectives for the conversation, how we're going to get there, and building a little credibility along the way. And then I'm going to tell them what we're going to do at the end, right next steps. So it might look something like this. Hey, Mike, thanks for joining this conversation. I'm super excited to chat with you. Really my goal, my objective here today is really to understand more about who you are, what you're all about, understand what's working, what's not in your life, where pain points are, what's stopping you from getting what you really desire in life. And in order to do that, I'm gonna ask you more questions. So the more open and honest you can be, the better. And I'll also offer you some perspective, based on you know, the 1000s of conversations I've had with people in similar positions, I think you'll get a ton of value from this call. Either way, by the end of the call, we should have a pretty good sense of whether or not it's a potential thing. If not, no worries, I'll try to point you in the right direction, if there is a potential fit, I can tell you a little bit about how I work with my clients, and we can decide to work together or not work together. And either way, it's fine. That sounds good to you. And basically, what we've done there is we lay out the goals. We've laid out the goals and the objectives, right? We've talked about how we're going to get there built a little credibility, I've had 1000s of conversations like this, or, you know, hey, I'm a coach of six and seven figure earners. So you're gonna get value from this conversation, and then next steps, and then you get their agreement once they agree to the premise. Right? Does that sound good, which is one of the easiest, yes, questions in the world, once they agree with the premise now. Right? Anytime they try to stray from the the agreement that we just made, they cannot right, it doesn't make sense, because they're incongruent with the word they just set. So that's creating a frame around the conversation. Now, that is a sales free frame. But you could equally come up with one just to sit down and have a transformative conversation with a subordinate, who's underperforming, or with somebody who's really struggling with an addiction problem. There's so many different ways to use this. There's more nuts and bolts on again to buy Wi Fi to you, Mike, what are your thoughts on this?

Mike Abramowitz 18:04
Yeah, I'm glad you just mentioned that you could use this for outside of just a sales conversation. So if you're, if you're running a business, or you know, you're running the household, and you know, you want to have this conversation, and parent, somebody, it's same concept. It's like, listen, the reason why I want to have this conversation with you in the pre frame, the reason why I want to have this conversation with you is because I've been seeing this, I'd really like to start seeing this happen. And I'd like to kind of close that gap. Is it okay, if we could have a conversation about closing that gap? Right? So my, it might be like, This is where you are, this is where I'd like you to be? There's a gap there. Can this conversation just be a bridge to bridge that gap? In pretty, pretty simplistic way? You could, it's, you could adopt that similar philosophy for any type of conversation.

Andrew Biggs 18:48
Right, right. What are some other like nuts and bolts that come up for you that you like to use in these transformative conversations that help you actually help somebody implement a real change that is lasting in their lives?

Mike Abramowitz 19:00
And specifically to report and pre frame or like the next

Andrew Biggs 19:04
it could be and yeah, it could be the next steps? It could be, you know, yeah, next step after

Mike Abramowitz 19:08
briefing is usually the discovery where I'm going to ask, I'm gonna start asking some of the deeper questions. So during the discovery, part of this conversation is very much curiosity. And you want to have some really good go to questions to, to ask where you can get below the surface. So a couple of examples might be so let's say yeah, I using the subordination or using the parenting type of conversation I just mentioned, like so I noticed you did this. I'd like to know a little bit more about what was your reasoning behind doing that? Like, what was your reasoning behind those actions like what was going through your mind? Kind of funny I had, I actually just had a parent conversation with my dad. Because if you follow me on Facebook, he was rolling around the snow in a like a thong jockstrap. My dad is mad If you're old, he's 81 years old, he is insane. And he decided to go Facebook Live to go to go roll around in the snow and talk about the health benefits of being 81 years old and cold therapy and loving the snow and all this

Andrew Biggs 20:17
and I was just knocked on fire. Oh, we gotta we gotta make this go.

Mike Abramowitz 20:21
You know, he's he's got like, 1500 views so far. That's hilarious. Hilarious. So I hadn't I hadn't I called him I supported him. I put a whole nice post. I was like, All right, my dad's not so I love them. We're gonna score him. I called him it's like dad. So I created a free for him. He said, Dad, I'm curious. You know, by the way, you know, I saw snowing, I saw the post on Facebook. I'm glad you're doing well. I hope you're warm now. But I gotta ask you, you went on this live and you're worth on? And you know, it's kind of interesting. I'm curious to add, like, I'm sure you had a reason behind doing this. What was your reason? Like what was going through your mind, like that led up to the moment of the decision to actually do that. And it opened up the conversation, then from the conversation, he kind of filled in some of the gaps. But it's just a very simple example to let them come to the surface, let them bring what's real to the surface with creating that type of question asking, and then it's like, tell me more about that. So tell, you know, tell me a little bit more about that. Like, why is that important to you? So that, you know, using my Isn't this crazy example. My dad's like, why was that important to you? For you to you know, go do that? And like just asking like, okay, so cool. Tell me more about that. Like, where do you think that comes from? Now, I obviously for this conversation, my dad, I wasn't like psychoanalyzing him. But when you're having a conversation with someone, like where do you think that stems from? Why do you think that? Why do you think that's important to you? Cool. Do you think that's important to you? Do you think it's important to other people in your life, and you want to please those people, so therefore, you made it important to you? I see. So it's like, entering into their paradigm a little bit, and also not only entering into the way they see the world, but it's also questioning a little bit of how they see the world because maybe they never even thought about it. Maybe there's some of their belief systems aren't even there. There's, it's actually imposed beliefs by, by by their environment, or by their parents or by their circumstances, and they never even had a comment. Like, I had a conversation with someone once it was like, the let me let me ask you this. I know you you mentioned about your relationship with money that like money's hard to come by? Is that something that came from like your upbringing? Like, did you have any memory of your upbringing where money was hard to come by, like growing up? And she said, It's crazy, because I do remember, you know, one time when I was 13, or 12 years old, and I observed the conversation, I heard them say that my parents haven't combos money's really hard to come by make sure you save a lot of your money. I said, and that was 13 year old you How old are you? Now she's like, I'm 60. I said, there's probably a lot of things that happened when you were 13 years old that you don't remember. But you specifically remember that one thing when you were 13. And now you're 60. So 50 years later, you still remember that memory? Why do you think of everything that happened when you were 13? You remember that one specific moment? Why do you think that was so important for you? Why is it so meaningful for you? And then she was like, Oh, my God, I never really thought about this. But that was a traumatizing experience for me, because she's like, I was like, asking for like the new shoes. I was asking for like clothes and stuff like that. She's like, Oh, my God. So I stopped asking for stuff. Because I realized money is hard to come by. And that was a framework of her whole life. I said, Well, if we had a label, the 13 year old version of you, what would you call her? Okay, we call her that? Well, that 13 year old version of you is still driving, you know, making decisions for the 60 year old version of you. Is that real? Like is that the truth? Is money hard to come by, like if you needed to make more money, could you make more money? So just by exploring it with some of these conversations is something that that, again, I just kind of ranting over there, but during the discovery phase, it's finding this balance of curiosity, and maybe bringing in a little bit of intuition, a little bit of wisdom. You know, what, what's showing up? I don't know if any of that kind of

Andrew Biggs 24:23
Oh, no, totally, it all has to do with being curious, right, like the discovery phase. And the, you know, the basic philosophy here is how can we help somebody if we don't really understand what their needs are? How can we help somebody if we don't understand what their challenges are? And, you know, we really have to try to get to the root of the problem. You know, we were talking a little bit about emotions. And, you know, when we think about, you know, any sort of big decision, it's an emotional decision. You know, when we think about whether it's the decision to, you know, completely radically change Your diet and exercise routines, whether it's the decision to, you know, take a new position at a new company, whether it's decision to, you know, ask a partner to marry you, or to get a divorce or whatever these big decisions are lives that people are struggling with, there's a lot of emotion around them. And so we need to actually go into the emotion in the conversation. And the way to do that is to actually ask the discovery questions about, okay, what's going on? And then how does it you know, how does that feel on a daily basis? What's that experience, like, you know, on a regular basis, so that people can connect with those emotions, you know, one of the realities is, unless somebody is dealing with something, you know, that is on that lower tier sort of emotions, which, by the way, for me, I would say our guilt, shame, apathy, anger, frustration, fear, you know, anxiety, some of these are more, you know, subsets of different emotions, but that something in that range, then a, they don't need to transformation, if they're not having those feelings, but, but be you know, the reality is, if they aren't sharing those things with you, and you're trying to help them out, it means they don't feel safe enough to share them. It's not because they don't have them typically. And so we need to be a create a space and cultivate a space for them to do that, by practicing non judgement and asking open ended questions, just to get the truth out there and to get them flowing a little bit. And in that state, where they're open enough to share, and then what I like to do once we have like an assessment of where they're at, I like to ask consequence based questions that drive that emotion deeper. And I'm going to, I'm going to drive it to both polarities, right. So the first polarity is what I call hell. And the second polarity is having, essentially it's like a pain pleasure, you know, sandwich that we're going to create here. And so the pain sandwich, the pain part of the sandwich is, hey, what's the consequence? If this continues to be a problem in your life? Right? What you know, okay, what are some other what else? What other some of the other consequences? What's the consequence of that? What's the consequence of that? I want to go to three, four or five layers deep as deep as possible. You know, who else is affected by that? How would that feel on a regular basis. So we're really amping up the the their association in real time on this call to to the pain and then I'm gonna flip the coin. Hey, thanks for going there with me. On the flip side, if you do solve this problem, what what's that going to feel like? Paint a picture for me a year from now? Where are you going to be? What's that going to look like? What's that going to feel? Like? What's it going to look like five years from now? What about 10 years from now? What about, you know, when you're on your rocking chair, how's it gonna feel, knowing that you solve this problem in 2022, and you got to hold of it and the rest of your whole life, you had this this problem, Concord? How's that going to feel like, it's gonna feel awesome, it's gonna feel great. And all of a sudden, we're starting to, like, create that pain, pleasure sandwich. And now they're really motivated, they're really inspired to take action. Because the emotions there. Otherwise, it's like, they know what they should do. Like everyone knows what they should do, right? Like, we can talk to anybody in the whole world. They know what they should do, probably. But why aren't they doing it? And it's mostly because they're not associated to the pain that they're actually in currently. And then the pleasure they could experience if they actually did solve the problem, Mike, let's say you,

Mike Abramowitz 28:23
yeah, when you talk about the pain, sometimes people aren't going to want to go there. So they're going to put on some sort of guard or some sort of shield. So it's important for you to create the space where it feels very safe. For example, if you say so, like, Hey, what are the consequences of feeling there? And they're like, Ah, I don't know, I, I don't really feel we have to really talk about that. It's like, we don't have to, you know, we don't we definitely don't have to. And I just want to make sure you know, I let you know. And then you could share a personal story. It's like, the reason why I asked the question fuse, because when it was asked to me, I saw it opened up possibilities of life that I didn't even know existed, and I just want that for you. So maybe this isn't real, maybe these consequences aren't don't exist. But if you had to say possibility, potentially, maybe, what are some possible consequences? Like if you were to continue on this path? What what might maybe show up for you down the road if you continue to treat your body this way? Or if you continue to, you know, show up for your business this way, or you continue just on this path? Like what would the compound effect of that look like? Maybe, and then sometimes they'll laugh like if they giggle or I'll be fat, you know, and they'll laugh at their own pain. Now, as the leader of this conversation, if they laugh at their own pain, you're you're making you're breaking some ground, which is really good. You want to hold space, so if you laugh with them, you're now like, kind of showing them it's like okay, versus holding space and I would hold if they laugh at that. If he left their pain, I'm like, yeah. What? What about that? You know, what? What about that? Tell me more about that. Why would that be something? Right? So there? I'll be fat? And maybe I'll get? I don't know. And I'm like, Yeah. What about that? Getting fat getting sick? Tell me more about that. Like, what are some potential consequences of getting fat or getting sick or, you know, not showing up in the red you so you're holding space as the authority. You even if they are laughing, if they cry, if her if you ask the consequence pain, pain question and it triggers an emotion and they start crying. And you make it feel like little awkward where it's like, sorry about that, I didn't mean to make you cry. Like, it's like one of those. That's, that's, that's that's like, just hold space. Breathe, you know, I slow down your breath, I think is really important. You slow down your breath, slow down your nods a little bit. And just sit there and just not slow down your voice? Say, I see. You had, you know, some trigger there? What, um, what do you think that trigger was? Yeah, and slow it down, hold the space. So that way they really feel into whatever that pain was. So and that's, that's what showed up for me during this like pain, using your reaction to the pain and and holding that space and creating the space for them to really feel into it. And not just avoiding it and going directly to the pleasure because the transformation happens through the tunnel of pain. And if you can continue through the tunnel of pain, and get into the other end of that tunnel and show them what the light of pleasures looks like. That that's where the transformation takes place. And that's why obviously, we're spending an entire day day three of our event in March, dedicated to a lot of this transformational type of conversations, because there's a lot to unpack here, there's a lot to unpack on how to read between the lines, how to show up, and how to intuitively be able to know what energy to call forward? And what are the cues? And what are the signs because it does take a little bit of skill and practice. So and you've been the master of this with me, Andrew over the last, you know, half a decade or more so, yeah, so yeah, mobile, kick it back to you

Andrew Biggs 32:27
skill and practice. Right. Like, you know, I definitely think it takes a lot of practice, and a lot of people are uncomfortable in those situations. And so, you know, being comfortable in those sort of like potentially awkward situations where somebody is triggered, and staying present, staying with them. Like we need to be able to guide them through, you know, the hell right, and then show them to heaven in order to actually create that transformation that's going to last. And I think like a lot of people have conversations, you know, give me a give me a hell yeah. And the audience, if you're listening now, and you can relate to this situation, have a conversation with somebody about you know, their performance at work, maybe it's like somebody who's a sales rep on your team or something. And you have a great conversation, you think it went really well. You think like, oh, yeah, we had a great conversation, they're all set, they're definitely going to sell this much this week, this much next this month, this much this year. And then guess what happens? Right? They go out and they do basically nothing, right? Or they or they go out, and maybe they're good for a few weeks, and then they fall off? And it just doesn't like it doesn't take right. Why is that? It's because the emotion wasn't strong enough, their why wasn't big enough, they weren't fully connected to the pain that they're going to experience if they don't solve the problem, which is poor performance in this case, and the pleasure that they're going to experience when they do solve the problem. So you know, helping them really connect to these emotions is what's going to create the lasting change. You know, the last thing I like to do before you kind of basically just say, Okay, well, hey, are you in on this vision for yourself, is I like to check their commitment, because in some ways, it's really easy to say all the right things up until this point, because a lot of times, again, people know what they're supposed to do. But once they like, at the end of the day, we still need to get them across the point of no return. Right? And that's that decision point that turning away from all other options that Tony Robbins talks about, that we need to get them to. And once you make a decision, it really you know, it's really easy to stick to it. But if you don't fully make the decision and you just kind of see it as a nice to have or nice to do, people aren't going to actually transform so the best way I know how to do that as a leader is to ask them for I like to do a commitment check. So I asked, Hey, looks like you know if you don't change this is your future, right? This pain, pain, pain, pain, and if you do change this is your future this push push, push, push measure and Now that you're here looking at these two options, you're standing at the fork in the road, how committed on a scale from one to 10? Are you to that second realities? What would you say on a scale from one to 10? And it's a really revealing question, because ultimately what people do is they kind of give you you know, one of three things. One is like a seven through a nine. That's like a very comfortable answer. Very rarely, someone I'm gonna say below a seven, if you've done this conversation well at all. If they do, by the way, I basically just throw it out. I'm like, hey, just so you know, if you're a six out of 10, committed to that vision, it's not going to happen. I can't help you, Mike Abramowitz can't help you, Tony Robbins can't help you, you can hire the best coach in the world, you're not gonna hit it, because you're just not committed enough. So I totally like take the option of working with me off the table, if it's a six out of 10. If it's seven through a nine, I'll kind of thank them for you know, being honest with me, because I do see those as honest answers. And then I'm going to basically walk them through, you know, well, hey, what's stopping you from being a 10? So we can actually address the fear that's there. And really, what's stopping them is it's fear. That's all that stopping them could be fear of failure, fear of missing out fear that they're not good enough fear of, you know, anything in this world, but there's some kind of fear that's holding them back from from being attacked. And even if someone's a nine, you're sitting there listening to this, you're like, Hey, I got someone do a nine out of 10. That's pretty good. They're probably gonna follow through, right? Nope, they're not 0% chance they follow through, you know, why? Because they didn't cross the point of no return to either attend or not attend. So hey, I appreciate that you're at nine. And also, what's stopping you from being a tech? You know, we need to handle that 10% I don't care if they're 99.999%. And if there's even a little hint that they're not fully across that point of no return, it's not gonna work. By the way, the two other options before I get back to you, Mike are the fake 10. And the real 10, the real 10s Obvious, where it's just like, I'm attend, and I'm ready, like, let's go, I wasn't sure before this, this conversation, but now I'm ready. And you can just have a sense, you're looking for ecology between their tone of voice, their language, and their body language. And if like, those things are matching up, you can kind of sense it's real. But effect 10 is kind of like this, like, ah, you know, I would say my like, I think like a 10. Probably. And like when someone says that, it's very obvious that they're not attend, if you're reading between the lines and paying attention to the cues. So then, hey, I appreciate that. You want to be a 10? And yet, I'm sensing some hesitancy. And I'm gonna take it right back. What's stopping you from being really attentive? What would you say? What was that hesitancy about? I'm going to point that out. So that commitment check is just a really important skill that so many leaders, so many managers miss out on. And they think they had a transformative conversation. But it didn't actually get them across the point of no return. And so we're right back where we started, you know, a few weeks later, Mike, what do you think?

Mike Abramowitz 37:47
And knowing your knowing your demographic, oftentimes, they're going to have a tough time making a full commitment to that 10. And that's why you need to become very good at this conversation, I would really listen to everything that Andrew just laid out for you. Because if you listen to this fundamental approach, you know, he he said there was art and he said there was science, what he just laid out for you was 100% science, do the open with the question and the report, pre frame discovery, go through the pain, go through the pleasure. And then you do a commitment, Jack, and he just gave you the blueprint. And if you get really good at that blueprint, that's the that's the that's the skill. That's the science, you're also going to position yourself to practice and you can get a little bit better at the art which takes you know, take some time, take some skill, take some practice, but that was super methodical, and and perfect, perfect, perfect execution with the commitment check. If they're, if they're hesitant, oftentimes, people just have a tough time making a commitment. They, they, I mean, especially men, typically. I mean, I don't I can't speak on behalf of all men, but a lot of men are. You know,

Andrew Biggs 39:01
I think there's a lot of women in the audience say amen right now. And

Mike Abramowitz 39:07
it's like, a lot of men have a tough time with commitment. And I know, I know, I'm guilty of that. I can't speak on behalf and population. But so if we, if we know that that's the demographic and you're talking to someone who has a tough time making a commitment, well, acknowledge that. So bringing that up, almost like a pre frame to the commitment check. It's like, listen, maybe and maybe in the past, you had a tough time making commitments to certain things. And if in the past, you had a tough time making a commitment to certain things, and you saw the type of results and potential consequences of not making commitments as a full 10. And you see the possibilities of when you do make a commitment to a full 10. I have to ask you, what is your commitment to this right now? One through 10 Like you might even want to bring that in to the commitment check. Again, reading between the lines a little bit and creating the space for that, that conversation to be had where it's like, you know what? Damn, you're good at this, you're right I have had a tough time with commitment in the past, you know this woman I'm with I freakin love her she's fantastic. And I'm concerned about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and I'm a 10. You know, I'm, I'm a 10, I've got to make make sure that she knows I'm a 10 that I know I'm a 10 I'm not going to let the craziness of my past get in the way of what I believe the future could be on a 10. Right, just by you creating that, that space for them to reflect back. It's like, yeah, by you being indecisive are not committing, it has created consequence. And bringing that into the commitment check could be a really good idea. So So just want to double click on that one.

Andrew Biggs 40:46
Totally, totally. Well, hey, this has been really fun. The last thing I'll just share with you is just to make sure we have next steps in place. So if it's a sale, you know, and ask for the order, if it's a you know, subordinate that's reporting to you plan out the next steps create a plan for how they're going to implement this. And that's oftentimes the easier part of this conversation that I think a lot of people you know, should not do if you need some help with that, ask us some questions in the chat or shoot Mike or IBM. But that's really just what I think a lot of people like to do is just skipped right to like, how are we gonna solve this problem, right? Like, let's put together a plan. But that's only it's not even half the battle. That's like 5% of the battle. Most again, most of the time, people know how to do what they're supposed to do people know how to lose weight, it's not a matter of that you, you'd have to be like, live your entire life off the internet to not know how to lose weight. The whole point is there's a million different ways there's million different people telling you how you could do it, and they probably all have some efficacy that call could all work. What matters is are you actually going to do it. And that's what this is going to help people do. Again, whether it's losing weight, better sales performance, better, either showing up and solving a particular blind spot, better relational conversations, communication, there's so many different applications of this. So Mike, any closing thoughts before we let everyone do for the day,

Mike Abramowitz 42:08
having a follow up play into that, you know, so once you do have those next steps, making sure that there's some some sort of accountability in place, something I like to do is just take some notes or shorthand notes on the conversation and send it to them in a recap. So that way, I have notes on the recap, they have notes on the recap, and it's easy for us to revisit for our future conversations. So that way, when we have the next combo, I have something documented to circle back on. It's like, Hey, so, you know, tell me a little bit about you know, what we spoke about the last time and I could pull up that recap. And it just makes it really easy to to keep the conversation going when we're already had the conversation.

Andrew Biggs 42:43
Totally, totally awesome. Well, this has been a pleasure how to have transformative conversations, the Definitive Guide has been laid out. And also there's so much more and so much more nuance that you can get with this. If you have questions, let us know. If you want to join us in Tampa in March. Please do. No matter what I hope you all have a great week ahead and remember to leave today better than you found it. Thanks for joining us.

Mike Abramowitz 43:05
Bye thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the show, please share it with others post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us. You can follow us on Instagram at better than underscore rich and join our Facebook group at the better than rich show. Thanks again for listening. We look forward to seeing you next time and remember, leave today better than you found it

Transcribed by https://otter.ai